A Most Necessary Catch-Up with New York's Forever "It Boy" Zac Posen
“How could I process it? I was just in it.” Posen reflects on the past and cements the future.
There’s something in the air — or is it the water? — when it comes to fashion. As Heidi Klum once famously quipped: “As you know, in fashion, one day you’re in, the next day you're out.” But maybe the day after that you’re back in? That seems to be the case for John Galliano and Marc Jacobs, two designers whose once top-of-the-tongue status had ebbed as the doyen-esque gatekeepers of fashion had set their sights elsewhere. But this season, something’s shifted. It began with Galliano’s latest collection for Margiela, deemed “the sort of immersive show that hasn’t been seen in more than a decade… maybe two,” by Vanessa Friedman at the New York Times. Marc Jacobs’s show, too, earned raves, with Vogue’s Nicole Phelps calling Jacobs “New York’s most reliable source of fashion highs.”
Luke Meagher of @hautelemode called it a fashion renaissance, noting that “the kings of the early 90s and 2000s are back!” The Washington Post’s Rachel Tashjian, too, wrote on the corollary greatness: “Already this year, two designers, Marc Jacobs and John Galliano, created shows that recharted the conversation of what fashion’s purpose is right now — that the most meaningful thing a fashion show can be at this moment is a space to play. To imagine. To experiment.”
Well, everything in threes, right? And thus, something of a return for designer Zac Posen, who never left the chat so much as went on something of a “Do Not Disturb” after his namesake label shuttered in 2019. In the half decade since, he’s focused on private commissions as well as costuming for film (The Outfit), theater (the New York City Ballet) and now, with his latest venture, television: creating custom garments for a crucial plotpoint in the third episode of Feud: Capote vs. The Swans, which centers around a recreation of Truman Capote’s famed Black and White Ball, held at the Plaza Hotel in 1966. All that, plus just yesterday he was named the new Creative Director of Gap Inc. Werq!
I’ve been a longtime admirer of Posen, who embodies, for me, the intersection of design and culture. He helped usher in what is today the expectation: that fashion shows are as much about the spectacle — and who’s holding court front row — as the clothes themselves. It doesn’t diminish the importance of the clothes (they are, after all, the reason we’re gathered here); rather, it bolsters the importance of those in the room. It was, at the time, somewhat scoffed at. But Posen has never been tipped from his axis at the suggestion that he’s out of step. In fact, it’s in that space he so frequently occupies that others jump to catch up to.
I love his dogged spirit, technical prowess, gay-gay-GAY!! disposition and his willingness to keep the ball in the air, even when the court keeps changing. Below, a wide-ranging conversation with Posen (my second time at bat!) about his career, his work on Feud: Capote vs. The Swans and some necessary queening out about our mutual love of musical theater.
There's a very famous article written about you by Cathy Horyn for the New York Times Magazine that is now celebrating its 20th anniversary. I wanted to read a section of it to you before I get your response. Horyn writes, “I thought then, and I think now, that Zac Posen is an operator. He is a little bit adorable and a little bit awful, words I once used in reference to Arnold Scaasi during his Bush-fascination days. But I have also come to the conclusion that of all the young designers gathering on the horizon, Posen is the one who is most likely to break through precisely because he possesses all the same qualities that worked so beautifully for his predecessors in this venal industry, including the former Mr. Isaacs (Scaasi spelled backward). Success in fashion is one part talent, one part luck and one part a tireless ability to hold a gaudy marquee over your head. Posen has all these qualities in excess.” That is remarkable to have written about you, but especially so towards the beginning of your career. How do you look back on that article?
I come from a family that loves the New York Times and reads it religiously and I had grown up reading Cathy's reviews. I remember when that article was presented to me: I was called into my PR company at the time, which was new to me, and they presented this article and it was all just way too overwhelming. I remember being really angry and hurt by that article at the time. It was a very smart article, retrospectively. I had already kind of lived through many fashion hits. When that article happened, it was really scary. I thought that was a make-or-break article because Cathy had a very important voice. What she was saying was something very different from where I was going, and there were definitely personal jabs in there. But many years after that, having further developed a creative and professional rapport with Cathy, I understand that she wouldn't even give it that kind of coverage if the work wasn't there, and that's kind of the takeaway now. I think it's pretty poignant.
It's interesting that you mention that because in the Vogue review of your Spring 2003 show, it begins by saying “Zac Posen is entering the make or break stage of his career.” This is crazy because this was only your second or third show, and you have an esteemed publication already speaking about this purported high wire act, whereas you look at a lot of the young talent being cultivated today here in New York and I think there's a care and a fragility in how they get spoken about in an effort to bolster them and help give them a lengthy runway before takeoff.
I hope so! I hope that's there for young creators. I'm always singing the praises of creative incubation. I think I came to fashion from a very pure, creative place and I fell in love with it through expression and theatricality. I entered fashion following a distinct moment: 1996 was one of the greatest years of fashion. I was probably 15 at that time, and it was happening. I mean, you have John Galliano moving to Dior. You have Alexander McQueen at Givenchy. Vivienne Westwood doing some of her best work. Thierry Mugler getting ready for his third act. Yohji Yamamoto doing operas. Probably some of the greatest fashion shows that have ever happened!
I was in New York starting to intern in fashion. I had made a transition from musical theater and ended up in the costume shop, which wasn't new to me because as a child, I created many theatrical works and sketching costumes was a big part of my identity, and that entered into fashion. New York fashion, at that moment, had found its footing in this idea of a white catwalk and something that was more minimalist and pristine. They were certainly not gonna deal with an over-25-year-old on the runway, let alone a 45-year-old woman. (The exception for height was only Kate Moss or Audrey Marnay.) There were rules, and I just didn't buy that. It wasn't interesting to me. It wasn't where culture was going. But the system hadn't picked up on that yet, and the following of what the youth wanted didn't exist in New York. Now, obviously the weight of commerce has shifted and social media has changed that, so for young creators today, I always say to use that incubation period to have the ability to build your world as much as possible. If I had Instagram when I was starting — I mean, who the hell knows? Back then, it was just survival.
You mentioned your interest in costume design for theater, so I would love to hear your top five favorite musicals.
Whoa, that's impossible! Top five? I can't even pick them because there are different ones for so many different reasons. There are musicals I've watched, roles I've played. My favorite role to play was the Artful Dodger. Sunday in the Park with George is the first show I saw on Broadway as a very young child. I probably slept through part of it, but I fell in love with Bernadette Peters, so that holds a very special place in my heart as well as having a father who is a painter and understanding from an early age through this show what I was experiencing from somebody who lived for their art. And that's when I had that Sondheim cut-through moment into my life, which was also followed by Into the Woods, which was a big part of my life and childhood. And it was all so beautifully designed. I always loved costume and set design and I would take all these shows and I would stage them with my cousins and my parents and I became the director. I would use my figurines and my dolls and dress them up and would make small maquette theaters in my room and that's how I played. The turntable was the top of a fan. The humidifier was the fog machine.
Is there a costume in the canon of musical theater that for you is just the girl?
I think that Bernadette Peters during the reprise of “Ever After” in the Act One finale of Into the Woods was a really major moment. It's an off-the-shoulder number with Bernadette in all her full, incredible figure. It was 30s/40s Victoriana fairy tale land.
The depths of gay of this conversation!
They’re HUGE. And I want to say that the 80s were darker. I was raised on The Dark Crystal and even kids’ stuff was real scary. That kind of macabre glam genre really spoke to me and was very formative aesthetically.
Would you campaign to bring that era back?
I would! That takes a big checkbook because I don't think that world can always be captured digitally anymore. That world was championed by great imagineers, by the incomparable legend Jim Henson. It takes a great level of investing by producers and studios investing in the art department and costume technique and building to get that actual physical claymation and stop motion. Creating fantasy imagination out of tangible things is something that I feel so fortunate to have been part of at the end of that moment through the transition into digital. It’s the same way I feel sad about the disappearance of actual reviews.
When you started assembling celebrities in your front row, you then had their adoration combined with the more discerning commentary from the critics. How did you metabolize so much feedback during that early stage of your career, especially from people putting you on this pedestal?
Every day was a new circus show. At the studio, pretty much every day had a photo shoot, major fittings for new collections being made, people coming through the studio. How could I process it? I was just in it. It was continuous adrenaline. And I loved it! Everything I had ever dreamt of was happening, but there was always the reality of survival. It's a little bit of a smoke show in that sense, except it's real. It's tangible. You're making real clothing. These are real people. It's real words being written. It was like living in live theater. We were surviving on people who donated their time; a lot of interns. I didn’t take a salary myself. I was living on the couch. You do what you have to to make it all work. I remember at the time, I'd be in the New York Post with pictures of me out at a nightclub dancing on tables, but I think that considering the attention, my head was on pretty straight and tight; I kind of understood the game, and I definitely had that performative, provocative side and I knew how to play it. If this was going to help me build my creative vision and a business behind it, to help support a community of people whose livelihood I was responsible for, then I would do it.
Let’s talk about your work on Ryan Murphy’s Feud: Capote vs. The Swans. In Episode 3 (directed by the legendary Gus Van Sant), you dressed the female attendees for the Black and White Ball, which is a real and very culturally formative event. How did you get involved in this project?
About two years ago, Gus — who I've known since my early 20s — came to New York and we went to dinner. He told me, “I'm scouting for this show. I'm thinking about Truman Capote and his ladies at the time — the Swans.” I found that surprising because that's not the subject matter that I immediately would associate with Gus and I said, “Well, if you're gonna make Charles James gowns, please let me know! I have time right now. I don't have my company. I don't design for Zac Posen the brand. I'm a one-man show. I can do this for you.” And that was that. Then Gus corrected me about the time period that the show was taking place in and I started going into my depth of research. I like this time period. These are great inspirations, these ladies that were very formative and important to culture and style and this is a very interesting moment when the old world met what we feel is contemporary today. And then I ran into Ryan and I said, “Ryan, I want to do this!” and he said, “Well, let's have you do the Black and White Ball,” and all of a sudden, I only had a week or two to put together this proposal.
That’s… not a lot of time!
I had been lightly prepping, but I didn’t want to get my hopes up. I got called to set and we kind of assembled this idea of a menagerie of an aquatic bird scene. They were all these different bird creatures and I wanted to see how we could get an abstraction of this moment. And I had gone into real deep research. I mean, I had sentences from Cecil Beaton books. I looked at who held the real grudge; which of these ladies? There's not one true answer; the bias changes from book to book. So it's like: How do you, as a researcher, collect a visual history? Dresses that these ladies had worn that I’d find credited to one brand in one publication and then credited to a different brand in another. What was apparent was that this was really the first large media-covered social event that combined whoever Truman decided he wanted to invite and the people he thought were interesting in Hollywood. It was all mixing. It was also televised. And I was able to experience this through a friend of a friend who found a VHS of the entrances of the ball, which I brought to production.
And I just went crazy! I had to interpret each lady and character that was given to me. I started with three-dimensional sketches. I built half of each of these looks with three-dimensional draping and collaging. When I then presented them for Ryan, I had a projection of swans swimming by on water over these drapings representing each one of the ladies. And Ryan said, “I love them, but I didn't hire you to recreate history. This has to be elevated and you have to remember that this is not a historical recreation show,” and it was the greatest creative challenge moment that I've had in a long time. It was scary because it was like the clock was ticking and I had put in a lot of time and work into that, but Oz had spoken so I had to rethink it and up it. I had to think about the modern-day expectation of theatricality and understand the balance between the historic setting and wanting to feel respectful and in sync with the guidance and direction that the production and costuming departments had set aesthetically, with these incredible actors who I have very long-standing relationships with or a huge amount of respect for and understanding their relationship to costuming and then it being Ryan Murphy's ball within Truman Capote's ball.
I love that you took that note and found inspiration in it rather than defeat.
I delved even deeper into it! I found this balance between history and dream world. These were couture costumes, and I knew that was a huge honor to have that trust from production. And I'm forgetting one very important component here, which is that Ryan put a camera on me and said, “Let's document this process of the making of these dresses.” He made this short-format documentary of the making of these costumes that will come out in some form with the show.
Your research process highlights that seriousness we were discussing earlier, and it’s so beautiful that Gus and Ryan recognized that and uplifted it.
One goes in and out of waves of popularity within a public career, and that’s part of it. It's part of American culture. It's part of media and Hollywood, and it's something that Ryan and I both really thrive off. It's pretty cool for him to give me this amazing platform and to have the guidance of his costume designer, Lou Eyrich, because costuming and glamor and creation of that is so important at this pinnacle moment. Seeing that scene being filmed on set is something I'm going to take with me for the rest of my life. The build up to it with these fittings with these incredible artists — there were really major changes made on the garments. I had to be very creatively quick on my toes. I'm here to make a performer feel their ultimate confidence and know when to push them in levels of theatricality. This has to function, even if it's just for a split second. I mean, this could have been a fashion show — and maybe it will be. We’ll see.
Let's end on what the Met Gala is to you.
The Met Gala has been my own Black and White Ball. I was an intern at the Met. It's close to home. I feel very part of the history, of the making of that — for good or for bad, for what it's become. People can roll their eyes at a costume that links high fashion and the absurd. But why not? I mean, maybe it’ll look like the end of Rome one day when we look back at it, but maybe there are great creative moments that spark imagination in somebody looking at that — even if it's on social media. I know that I've had some moments in my career where that’s happened, and that is what I live for.
To hear the extended interview, click here.