Jenna Lyons, You Will Always Be Famous
"You don't have to just snap your fingers and be famous. Work is really fun."
Jenna Lyons is what one might call the reluctant Housewife. The wafty scent of desperation, so alchemic to most of the 150+ women designated as a “Real Housewife,” doesn’t metabolize in Lyons’s statuesque 6’0” frame. She’s not the first Housewife with an established pedigree — there’s been New York Times-bestselling author Carole Radziwill, Grammy Award-winner Kandi Burruss, model Cynthia Bailey and actresses galore (Lisa Rinna, Denise Richards, Kim Fields, etc.) — but Lyons is easily the most unexpected.
My fiancé and I pull into her south-of-the-highway Hamptons home just steps from Amagansett Beach and park behind the gray Subaru as directed. We’re greeted by Lyons in a sheer white Thom Browne sundress with a black bra peeking through. I try to count the necklaces — I think there’s four. Her sunglasses stay on throughout. “We’re doing wedding planning,” my fiancé, Billy, tells her as we — the three of us, plus her son Beckett, who comes in and out to help with the AV — get cozy on her deck (she does the entirety of the 80+ minute interview lounging). She lights up, her hands cover her mouth; she’s rapt. I’d love to tell her all about the wedding, have her paw through every detail and provide feedback and direction, but that’s not what we’re here for, and furthermore, that’s what she gets paid the big bucks for. But this just serves to highlight another piece of Lyons’s alchemy that separates her from her Housewives contemporaries: She’s curious about others.
I first met Lyons several months ago at a lunch arranged by a mutual friend of ours. It was months before her Real Housewives debut and she was seeking advice from an expert. She settled on me. I, of course, knew very well who Lyons was, having rapturously followed her 27-year career at J.Crew from intern to executive creative director and president. I, like many, vividly remember the 2013 New York Times headline: “Jenna Lyons, the Woman Who Dresses America.”
After parting ways with J.Crew in 2017, Lyons fell somewhat out of the public eye (more on that in our interview). She reemerged in 2020, launching LoveSeen, a false eyelash beauty brand, and hosting an HBO Max series called Stylish with Jenna Lyons. The latter failed to capture an audience, and so Lyons chose (shrewdly, in my opinion) to affix herself to something not only zeitgeist-y, but with an audience largely comprised of potential consumers: The Real Housewives of New York City.
“There’s a kind of vulnerability and unguardedness [to Lyons] that is rare in that level of designer,” Vogue contributor Mark Holgate once observed of Lyons. How funny, then, that on a girls trip to Anguilla in the most recent episode of RHONY, she was interrogated by her castmates for her lack of vulnerability and her extreme guardedness. For what it’s worth, I read this as more about her discomfort with the formula of Housewives, which expects women to open up about themselves (often with tears) to not only a group of relative strangers, but to the millions who watch. It’s simply unnatural, despite being categorized as “reality.” Lyons, whose career has been founded on rigorous study combined with intuition, is in many ways a fish out of water here. But it also speaks to Lyons’s grit that she’s unafraid to try something new, even if the initial fit is not as comfy as her much-coveted Phoebe Philo-era Celine.
Below, a conversation with a friend and an icon.
You're a few months into Real Housewives airing, but you filmed over a year ago. I imagine it's a very different feeling once it's out there, having made this show without knowing how it's going to be received. You don't know what the other women are saying behind your back. You don't know which footage they're going to use, what they're going to scrap, what context is going to be given to a moment. And here it is now. How are you feeling about the show being out in the world?
What's interesting to me is that my previous job had conditioned me so much to moving on; I would always work on a season of clothes and then I would go on to the next, and by the time that season was in the store, it was a year ago and I had so moved on. So I think I'm sort of in the same place; I'm just not really thinking about it that much. I was a little bit afraid, of course, of how it would be portrayed, but I was able to move on.
Now, I’m not trying to stir the pot, but on Bethenny Frankel's podcast, she revealed that you reached out to her seeking advice about Housewives and that she “rejected your ass.” She said she’d never heard of you and that the show is setting it up like you are Lady Gaga joining the cast. When you reached out to her, it sounds like you were doing your due diligence by being like, “I'm entering into this new experience, and Bethenny is the maestro of this art form.”
I can imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. I think that she has been through this process for years and it's had its ups and downs and clearly, she has a tricky relationship with the show, so she may not have wanted to play favorites. She may just not have wanted to discuss it for reasons that are her own. It's none of my business, honestly. I don't feel anything about it. I’m fine that she had no idea who I was — that happens all the time! [Laughs] I don't have any ill will about it.
You don’t strike me as the type to listen to a Housewives recap podcast.
No! Sorryyy. [Laughs] I think there's a danger of it becoming my whole life. Andy [Cohen] texted me after the show launched and said, “How does it feel to be a Housewife?” and I was like, “Well, I'm actually not a Housewife. I'm Jenna Lyons. I am on a show called The Real Housewives.” I don't want it to become my defining moment, and it's tricky, because I had a career prior to this — a relatively large one — and I don't want this to become my calling card. At the same time, I've become well aware that this is a very large, very visible and very passionate show. I actually can't believe how obsessed people are.
As the subject of many a profile throughout your career, you've had several instances of someone talking to you but essentially treating you like an anthropological study, as is the nature of someone in your position. Now that’s sort of happening again where we’re getting these profiles written about you, and I'm wondering what that's like for you. For instance, the J.Crew conversations, something that may be comfortably in your rearview, are coming up quite frequently in a way that maybe they weren't two or three years ago.
Listen, I would much rather talk about my life in its entirety than focus only on this moment in time. The fact of the matter is, I have strategic reasons for doing this — as everyone does. If anyone says they don't, they’re lying. No one goes on this show for their health and for fun; everyone has a reason, and my reason was to support my current business. At the same time, there is context. If you don't know who I am, I would much rather you know that I didn't just poof out of midair all of a sudden. I have a life, I have history, and I'm happy to share that. Do I want to move on from my past? Of course! I think that has probably been one of the hardest things for me: separating myself from J.Crew. One of the reasons I think I didn't find another job afterwards is because I was too connected to this brand.
During your time at J.Crew, you had a three-episode arc on the HBO series Girls. You played Hannah’s (Lena Dunham’s character) boss at GQ. I happen to have had Greta Lee on this podcast recently, who also was on Girls, and I asked her what she thinks became of her character, Soojin, and now I'm curious about your character, Janice, because after you fire Hannah, we don't see you again. What do you think Janice would be doing today?
From where it seemed to be going, Janice wasn't doing so well. She wasn’t really caring for her team. She was very terse. And it was funny because Lena [Dunham] kept asking me to be more mean and she wanted me to yell at her, and she made fun of me because I couldn't do it. I didn't grow up in a household where there was yelling, so I'm not good at it. But I think Janice is probably retired and lonely now.
I want to talk about your home in New York City, which was featured not only on the season premiere of RHONY but was also recently highlighted on Vogue’s “Objects of Affection” video series. It reminded me of what I think attracts so many people to you, which is the way you're able to speak about the things that interest you which in turn creates an interest from those who have never even heard of that thing. I love that video so much, and one of the things that you said about your apartment was that it was the first time in your life that you got to do something that was exactly the way you wanted it to be. So I’m trying to envision: You get the place, you walk in for the first time, you have a palette with which you can do exactly what you want. What's that feeling like?
For so many years, I had been filling a role, and I became almost like an archetype of someone else. I was at J.Crew for a long time, but it wasn't all of me. There was this whole other part of my life; I was obsessed with things that were marble and brass and all these things that really didn't fit the mold of what I was doing. And interestingly enough, I remember when I finished my apartment, Vogue wanted to shoot it. [J.Crew’s] business was a little bit tough at the time, and everyone internally was like, “We don't want you out in the world with the image of that home. It's too lux.” And I understand; J.Crew had this image of being very humble and very pared-down and the house in Maine clad in shingles and that kind of thing. And here I have this relatively opulent apartment, but there was something really fun to not having anyone telling me “no.” I hadn't really had that. I was always working under the construct of this brand; of this other idea that wasn't necessarily completely mine.
Did you have any concerns about welcoming cameras into your home? Less for Vogue, because you know how it's going to be depicted, but on a reality show, you don't know the way in which your home is going to be portrayed. And on top of that, audiences are obsessed with the homes of Housewives.
I did not realize that element! I had previously done a show called Stylish with Jenna Lyons, so I had seen how a house gets lit. But when the Bravo team came in, they lit up my house like a Christmas tree and I was like, “Holy shit!” Every scene, I was like, “Can we dim it down a bit? Does it have to be quite so overly lit?” and they were like, “Well, we want you to look good.” But I realized that on the show that I'd done before, they weren't fully capturing us in reality, and honestly, seeing Housewives? It’s hard. The lighting’s hard. [Laughs] There's one scene of me in the bedroom and it's like you could have a gynecological exam in there. It is lit up!
Can we rewind a bit and explore how you first got into the world of fashion? For those that don’t know, your origin story is one of particular interest.
I have a genetic disorder, so when I was young, my teeth were shaped like cones, I had huge bald spots on the back of my head and I had scars that were and still are quite visible. I was teased pretty relentlessly and I didn't have any connection to feeling pretty or attractive. I certainly never got any attention from boys or any of that stuff. I eventually took this home economics class and started making clothes for myself. I was very tall and skinny, but at the time, J Brand jeans didn’t exist; I couldn't go and buy a tall, skinny pair of jeans. I was in the Big Girl section thinking that I was really big until I measured myself for a skirt and wore it to school and the girl who sat next to me in Social Studies sent me a note and was like, “I like your skirt! Where did you get it?” and [my brain exploded]. It was the first time anyone had ever given me positive feedback for the way I looked, and I wrote back and told her, “I made it!” and she said, “Will you make me one?” and I was like, “Wait, what?” I all of a sudden realized that I could feel good about something that I made, and if it could make me feel this good, then someone might want to buy it. Something clicked in there, and then I started taking sewing classes, my grandmother gave me a sewing machine and a subscription to Vogue, my mom put me in art classes, and I just held onto that so tightly because it was my only hope of getting out of this box that I was in. It was really revolutionary for me.
And this was before the internet afforded so many people the access to the world of fashion that we’re now all so accustomed to.
I didn't have any access to fashion or any understanding of it. And I fell in love! Really in love. I remember seeing Issey Miyake gracing the pages of Vogue and seeing the big black stripes over the [models’] eyes and these huge black clothes, and it wasn't necessarily anything I would want to wear, but what I loved was that it didn't look like the Baywatch beauties that I was seeing, so I started to understand that beauty could look different than what I was being told was the only way.
You’ve mentioned in several interviews that when you first started at J.Crew, you were sort of an assistant to an assistant to an assistant. Obviously, the fashion industry is very different today, but I think people always want to know how someone who's super successful got to where they are now, and I think you have a particularly interesting path in really starting at the entry level and working your way up. Can we zoom in on that?
The thing that is so hard now is this culture of influencers; there’s this idea that anyone and everyone can get there quickly, and the fact of the matter is that it's a little bit like a lottery. Yes, there are a lot of people that are doing very well and they can be successful, but there's no exchange for hard work. I also have a ton of experience. I was talking to someone yesterday and they were like, “Oh, well linen and cotton are the same thing,” but I was like, “They're actually not the same thing,” and I realized I have this wealth of knowledge. I can touch a fabric and know exactly what it's made out of and know the weave and I can go through my closet blindly and know exactly which pants I’m touching. I have a ton of experience understanding fit and tailoring. I think a lot of people who are in the clothing industry don't know anything about clothes and the history of clothes. It's hard when you see somebody get really successful without putting in the time. And don't get me wrong: I’m thrilled [for them]! But you can still get there if you just do the work. It does actually happen. You don't have to just snap your fingers and be famous. Work is really fun. I love having the background and the information. I feel really proud of that.
During your time at J.Crew, you had to deal with a very distinct type of media: the gossip media of that era. I remember a 2011 J.Crew catalog in which you had painted your son's nails, and the reaction that elicited was as though you had given him a gun. What is it like looking back at those moments now, where you did something so innocuous but it was seen as completely ludicrous?
It's interesting because we're having this conversation where Florida is telling kids you can't say gay. The fact that we're actually going backwards is shocking to me. And I was shocked at the time! First of all, they said that my child was 10 years old, and at the time, he was four, and any parent who has a child knows that little girls and little boys want to do what their parents are doing. I painted my toenails and my son was like, “Wow, that's cool! I wanna do that.” I could have told him, “Oh, I won't do that because that's what girls do,” but of course I didn't. Children don't innately decide that it's bad to be gay or to paint your nails [as a boy]. It's something that a parent who's afraid tells their kid and I didn't surround myself with people like that, so I was completely shocked [by the media reaction]. But I was very grateful for the level of support that I got; it was so massive that Fox had to take the piece off of their website. And I can understand that no parent wants their child to be ostracized. I don't blame someone for being afraid, because society makes us afraid. And it's a bummer, because I think it has such a negative effect on so many kids. And honestly, I think for the person who's afraid, it's like: You don't have to worry. We're doing great!
Absolutely. But unfortunately, the gossip media affected you personally in another serious way: You were outed against your will by the press in 2011. Do you think the way society treats the LGBTQ+ community has evolved a lot since that time?
Somewhat, but the challenge now is that the LGBTQ+ hate isn’t undercover. There's a much bigger wave of pushing against it now, and it's so much stronger than in the past because as the number of [out LGBTQ+ people] grows, the fear becomes more real and comes into your backyard, as opposed to being over somewhere else. And as that encroaches on your own backyard, people start to get more cruel and more vigilant, and I honestly felt safer 10 years ago than I do now.
Wow. At that time, when these stories would come out, did you feel like you were being targeted for being a woman in a patriarchal society or a gay person in a homophobic one?
I think the thing about me that was interesting for people at the time was that I had been married to a man and I had worked with a very American brand. There was this idea of traditionalism around that brand, and the fact that I, as one of the leaders of that brand, had chosen a lifestyle that didn't fit into this archetype of “family” was interesting. So I don't necessarily think it was male versus female; I think it was more connected to what the expectations of me were. The only time where I actually felt treated poorly was the fact that somebody decided they wanted to out me; the press around it and the support that I got from the team inside my office and everyone around me was wonderful. I was completely blown away. I thought for sure it would be harmful and people would be upset, and that just didn't happen.
A 2013 Fast Company profile reads, “Not since Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive at Apple has a creative pairing been as intriguing and fruitful as that of Mickey Drexler [then chairman and CEO of J.Crew] and Jenna Lyons.” How would you describe your relationship with Mickey today?
It was one of the best relationships I will ever have had in my entire life. I have never been in a situation where someone gave me chances and trusted me the way that Mickey did. He pushed me to do things that I didn't think I could do. He believed in me in ways that I didn't believe in myself. He put me in a position that I think really changed the way the company felt, because when you put somebody who has a creative background in a very senior role at a company, it says a lot to both the internal and external teams. You had people coming in from the outside and realizing that design and creative were king, and I think the reason that they related that to Steve Jobs is because he also really harnessed and supported design and creativity as much as he did technology, and that’s unusual. So I am forever grateful to Mickey.
You parted ways with J.Crew in 2017. At the time, it was perceived that the company was not doing as well as it had been in its heyday. It’s my understanding that you were sort of accredited with the fact the company had been doing so well, so when things weren't going well, I can imagine that people were quick to say that was also your doing. Did you feel that way?
I've said this before and I'll say it again: I got more credit than I deserved for the good and for the bad. I was one person! I'm very grateful for the influence that I was able to have. I think the best thing that ever happened to me was I got taken down. Yes, I left J.Crew of my own accord and it was time, but the fact of the matter was a rug really got pulled out from underneath me. All of a sudden, no one cared what I was doing. I didn't get invited to anything. Everything stopped and everyone was disinterested in me. It was all quiet, and it was really humbling and it made me realize that none of it was real; it's just because you're in the spotlight. And so I have a really different approach now, and I'm really grateful that I went through that, even though it was hard. It was definitely a massive ego check. I needed it, honestly. I needed to remember that I have to earn my seat; I don't just get it. I think it was good for me to go through that. I came out the other side, and I think it’s why I don't get so caught up in all this stuff going on now, because tomorrow it could be all gone.
What do you make of the world of stylists today? Obviously, they've existed for a long time, but I feel like they’ve evolved into a unique ecosystem. From my perspective, I feel like there's a ubiquity today which makes me miss a certain era of celebrity, particularly one in the early and mid 90s when celebrities would step out on red carpets wearing whatever they wanted to wear.
The stylist today versus what it was when I was coming up in the industry has completely changed. It used to be that a stylist was somebody who pulled clothes from all different places and then would mix and match and put them together. Teen Vogue, for example: the hands-down best styling ever! We would pour over those pages. They would take baseball jackets and Puma sweat socks and pair them with sequin skirts, and it was just incredible. Then, over time, if a stylist did something with a brand’s clothing that they didn't like, the brand would get upset. So brands started to say, “If you want to pull this new Prada item, you have to show it head-to-toe. If you want to pull this Ralph Lauren thing, you have to show it head-to-toe.” So now, styling is not mixing all of these things; it's just pulling a head-to-toe look because they're an advertiser. I miss the mix-and-match styling era so much. There's not a lot of mixing today.
Now, pivoting to RHONY for a bit: I don't want to say you were reluctant to join the cast of this show, but you're not someone that had your hand up in the air being like, “I want to be on Real Housewives,” and I think that ingredient is why you work so well on the show. There's an air of desperation that is standard for modern Housewives, and it's something that you do not possess. So far, what is an unexpected thing that this show has given you?
The thing that is completely surprising to me is the number of people who are reaching out to me via DM and saying, “Thank you so much for being yourself and being open and honest about it all.” The fact of the matter is I have a lot of cards that are stacked up, between talking about my genetic disorder, my mother having Asperger's, my public outing — I didn't mean for it to sound like a sob song, but there are a lot of people telling me they’re grateful that these things are being talked about. I never talked about my mom having Asperger's when she was alive — she passed right before the show aired — and so that has been a really interesting one. So many people have come out of the woodwork thanking me for talking about it and saying they now see how their mother impacted them; it's very common in women. I'm so happy to make anyone feel comfortable talking about something they need to.
Absolutely! Let’s unpack the experience of the show a little. I think the group trips are many viewers’ favorite aspect of Real Housewives, but it’s also the most unnatural because they bring together a lot of very different adult women to have sleepovers. How have you adjusted to doing those group trips?
I have not. Zero adjustments. [Laughs] I'm still traumatized! Oh, my God. I mean, the group sleepover thing; I did not do well. They were mad at me. The public nature [of the show] is always so weird to me. You have so many people around. The idea of pulling someone aside to talk with an audience around is not my favorite, but at the same time, I understand it is a show and I knew what I was getting myself into, so I don’t have a “get out of jail free” card.
Tell me about your experience with the confessionals.
It was a total out-of-body experience. Like, who is that person? [Laughs] My girlfriend always says, “That's your strategic personality. That's not you!” and I'm like, “Really?” I feel like I'm being myself. It's so hard to be natural. It's such a weird thing.
Looking forward a little: When you think about your life in 15 years, what do you want to be doing at that point? I feel like the world is your oyster.
I think where I'd like to be in 15 years is gardening and maybe just really fat? [Laughs] I’d like to eat everything under the sun! I don't want to care anymore. I want to eat all the ice cream on the planet. I don't know! Just definitely not on the grind. I'm gonna just chill.
Is there ever a world in which we would see a Jenna Lyons clothing line?
Hell to the no! [Laughs] The only thing I might do is a talk show.
I would love that. What about you on something like The View?
Totally! I’m all game. But the problem is I don't do well in groups. I’m better on my own. I know it's weird.
I love this about you: You feel like you don’t do well in groups, so you join an ensemble reality TV show!
In retrospect, I did not think it through. I really thought I could handle it. I thought I would be cool. I thought I was gonna be fine, and I just really struggled. It was hard.
But I think the lack of strategizing is ultimately what makes you so endearing!
You cannot strategize that shit! Anyone can say they do, but you just can't. When it actually comes down to it and the cameras are rolling and you've been on camera for 10 hours, you strategy goes away.
The ultimate formula is just being yourself, but it's really difficult to be oneself when a person doesn't know who they are.
Well, this is something that I think is really important: The fact of the matter is if it was just me on the show, the show would be boring AF. We need the girls! We need Brynn and Ubah and Jessel and Erin and Sai because those girls are funny and boisterous and out and loud and proud, and I'm a little shy. People may say, “I don't like that so-and-so did this” and “how do you deal with that?” [and my response is] because they actually make the show, not me. So leave them alone. They’re my girls. Back off!
